Comments on: The Instinct Guy http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/ Learning on Your Terms Tue, 02 Dec 2008 08:29:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: Ana http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-51409 Ana Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:18:49 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-51409 This is off-topic and probably everybody already knows it or has read it but I have found a great article about chinese language learning in The Economist and I wanted to share it with you (at least, most of it). “CHINA will be the dominant power in the 21st century and the employment opportunities that speaking Mandarin will give are immense.” Thus Anthony Seldon, headmaster of Wellington College, at a conference in 2006 entitled “Why every school should offer Mandarin”. Nearly two years later, the spectacular growth of the language in British schools shows no sign of slowing. More than 400 secondary schools now teachit, according to the Specialist Schools and Academies Trust, which is lobbying to bring Mandarin into the national curriculum. And Britain is not alone in its enthusiasm for the language: some 30m foreigners are studying Mandarin today, and Chinese authorities expect the number to rise to 100m by 2010. In a few decades China may indeed overtake America as the world's top economic power. Will Britons who make the effort to learn its language be rewarded with better careers? Barring some kind of sea change in global language learning, the answer will almost always be no. With its tones and horribly complicated writing system, Mandarin is much harder to learn than most European languages. The Foreign Office, for example, gives its officers four times as long to get from beginner to operational level in Mandarin as it does in Italian, French or Spanish—and only those with the greatest aptitude for languages are selected for it. The vast majority of Westerners who travel to China to study Mandarin give up, go home and forget what they have learned. Undergraduates at British universities find it hard to adjust to a workload heavier than that for other subjects, and many drop out. For those determined to become fluent in Chinese, a good level to aim for is a score of six in the national standard “Hanyu Shuiping Kaoshi” exam. This is the qualification foreigners need to enroll alongside local undergraduates at a Chinese university. A graduate in Chinese from a British university should reach that grade (though many do not). So should someone with good linguistic ability who studies Mandarin in China full-time for three years. But is learning moderately good Chinese worth the opportunity cost? After all, in three or four years a British graduate could get most of the way to qualifying as a lawyer, for example. According to the Association of Graduate Recruiters, those who hire British graduates attach little importance to language skills in general. So to justify the extra effort needed, the demand for fluency in Mandarin would have to be way above demand for, say, French. Yet anecdotal evidence suggests that there is little call for Britons with Mandarin. One reason is that many Chinese already speak reasonable English. In China's bigger cities children often start learning English in reception year. It is compulsory for all from the start of secondary school to the second year of university. To study for a doctorate, even in fine art or the poetry of the Tang dynasty, students need to show fluent literacy in English. An academic career is closed to those who cannot do so. Outside the classroom, too, there is widespread conviction that a child's prospects will be limited if he does not learn English. Senior managers with no capacity in the language are becoming a rarity. China's elite professionals are often bilingual because most of them went to university in America, Britain or Australia. For this reason, Britons at home never need to use Mandarin in their dealings with Chinese firms. Haier, a white-goods maker, for example, reports that every Chinese employee posted to its 15 overseas industrial parks, 22 trading companies, 30 plants and eight R&D centres outside China speaks good English. Within China companies can hire an expatriate who speaks Chinese. Or, more often, they take their pick from an abundant supply of local graduates in English who are happy to work for 2,000 yuan (£130) a month. “I took an 80% pay cut to come here because I wanted to learn the language,” says Ken Schulz, a software engineer from Silicon Valley who studied Chinese full-time for four years at Beijing's University of Language and now works in the capital at WorkSoft, an outsourcing firm. “I'm the only foreigner in an office of 1,200 people, and I hardly get any opportunity to use my Chinese.” At Search Bank, a Beijing employment agency, Hai Yuen points out that, whereas the value of compensation packages for expat executives has been shrinking over the past ten years, the number of Chinese-speaking foreigners she handles has been rising. This is off-topic and probably everybody already knows it or has read it but I have found a great article about chinese language learning in The Economist and I wanted to share it with you (at least, most of it).
“CHINA will be the dominant power in the 21st century and the employment opportunities that speaking
Mandarin will give are immense.” Thus Anthony Seldon, headmaster of Wellington College, at a conference
in 2006 entitled “Why every school should offer Mandarin”. Nearly two years later, the spectacular growth of the language in British schools shows no sign of slowing. More than 400 secondary schools now teachit, according to the Specialist Schools and Academies Trust, which is lobbying to bring Mandarin into the
national curriculum. And Britain is not alone in its enthusiasm for the language: some 30m foreigners are
studying Mandarin today, and Chinese authorities expect the number to rise to 100m by 2010.
In a few decades China may indeed overtake America as the world’s top economic power. Will Britons who
make the effort to learn its language be rewarded with better careers? Barring some kind of sea change in
global language learning, the answer will almost always be no.
With its tones and horribly complicated writing system, Mandarin is much harder to learn than most
European languages. The Foreign Office, for example, gives its officers four times as long to get from
beginner to operational level in Mandarin as it does in Italian, French or Spanish—and only those with the
greatest aptitude for languages are selected for it. The vast majority of Westerners who travel to China to
study Mandarin give up, go home and forget what they have learned. Undergraduates at British
universities find it hard to adjust to a workload heavier than that for other subjects, and many drop out.
For those determined to become fluent in Chinese, a good level to aim for is a score of six in the national
standard “Hanyu Shuiping Kaoshi” exam. This is the qualification foreigners need to enroll alongside local
undergraduates at a Chinese university. A graduate in Chinese from a British university should reach that
grade (though many do not). So should someone with good linguistic ability who studies Mandarin in
China full-time for three years.
But is learning moderately good Chinese worth the opportunity cost? After all, in three or four years a
British graduate could get most of the way to qualifying as a lawyer, for example. According to the
Association of Graduate Recruiters, those who hire British graduates attach little importance to language
skills in general. So to justify the extra effort needed, the demand for fluency in Mandarin would have to
be way above demand for, say, French.
Yet anecdotal evidence suggests that there is little call for Britons with Mandarin. One reason is that many
Chinese already speak reasonable English. In China’s bigger cities children often start learning English in
reception year. It is compulsory for all from the start of secondary school to the second year of university.
To study for a doctorate, even in fine art or the poetry of the Tang dynasty, students need to show fluent
literacy in English. An academic career is closed to those who cannot do so.
Outside the classroom, too, there is widespread conviction that a child’s prospects will be limited if he
does not learn English. Senior managers with no capacity in the language are becoming a rarity. China’s
elite professionals are often bilingual because most of them went to university in America, Britain or
Australia.
For this reason, Britons at home never need to use Mandarin in their dealings with Chinese firms. Haier, a
white-goods maker, for example, reports that every Chinese employee posted to its 15 overseas industrial
parks, 22 trading companies, 30 plants and eight R&D centres outside China speaks good English.
Within China companies can hire an expatriate who speaks Chinese. Or, more often, they take their pick
from an abundant supply of local graduates in English who are happy to work for 2,000 yuan (£130) a
month. “I took an 80% pay cut to come here because I wanted to learn the language,” says Ken Schulz, a
software engineer from Silicon Valley who studied Chinese full-time for four years at Beijing’s University of
Language and now works in the capital at WorkSoft, an outsourcing firm. “I’m the only foreigner in an
office of 1,200 people, and I hardly get any opportunity to use my Chinese.”
At Search Bank, a Beijing employment agency, Hai Yuen points out that, whereas the value of
compensation packages for expat executives has been shrinking over the past ten years, the number of
Chinese-speaking foreigners she handles has been rising.

]]> By: Michael Butler http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-51054 Michael Butler Sat, 01 Dec 2007 01:36:57 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-51054 If it is true that there is some natural order of acquisition （as I believe）then I would disagree that as teachers we can not teach。 In its broadest sense I like to think of teaching as sequencing the presentation of materials in a order that makes it more likely that intake will occur。Curriculum is， I feel， a physical， embodiment of teaching。 Any grad school that does not recognize this is， I feel， doing a disservice to its teachers in training。 Moreover any grad school that does not recognize the importance of curriculum in the teaching process is probably not training teachers nearly enough to be reflective。 Language learned in the wild is different from language learned in the classroom。 I tire of one being compared to the other to show that teaching is irrelevant。The teacher is there to accelerate the learning process， especially in a situation where students do not have access to a native speaking environment。 THIS IS TEACHING。 If it is true that there is some natural order of acquisition （as I believe）then I would disagree that as teachers we can not teach。 In its broadest sense I like to think of teaching as sequencing the presentation of materials in a order that makes it more likely that intake will occur。Curriculum is， I feel， a physical， embodiment of teaching。

Any grad school that does not recognize this is， I feel， doing a disservice to its teachers in training。

Moreover any grad school that does not recognize the importance of curriculum in the teaching process is probably not training teachers nearly enough to be reflective。

Language learned in the wild is different from language learned in the classroom。 I tire of one being compared to the other to show that teaching is irrelevant。The teacher is there to accelerate the learning process， especially in a situation where students do not have access to a native speaking environment。 THIS IS TEACHING。

]]> By: Orlando Kelm http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-45561 Orlando Kelm Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:44:05 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-45561 Hi JP, Congrats on the relaunch. I remember years ago reading a really interesting dissertation by Lily Wong Filmore (now at UC Berkeley I believe) who studied elementary school as they had to make a transition to learn English. Her basic point was that adults attack language learning: first correct form, second communication, third socialization. The young kids did the opposite, first socialization, second communication, third correct form. There are a million differences between first and second language learning, but I do believe adults could learn a lot from the younger ones who put socialization first, then worry about communication second, and save the worries about correct form third. Mucha suerte. Hi JP,

Congrats on the relaunch.
I remember years ago reading a really interesting dissertation by Lily Wong Filmore (now at UC Berkeley I believe) who studied elementary school as they had to make a transition to learn English. Her basic point was that adults attack language learning: first correct form, second communication, third socialization. The young kids did the opposite, first socialization, second communication, third correct form.
There are a million differences between first and second language learning, but I do believe adults could learn a lot from the younger ones who put socialization first, then worry about communication second, and save the worries about correct form third. Mucha suerte.

]]> By: Steve http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-44879 Steve Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:40:35 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-44879 Hi Bob, It's good to know we have your support. We're committed to getting it right with SpanishPod. Everything from the team to the lessons to the community development and responsiveness. I agree we have to potential to do something remarkable. Let's do it together! Hi Bob,
It’s good to know we have your support. We’re committed to getting it right with SpanishPod. Everything from the team to the lessons to the community development and responsiveness. I agree we have to potential to do something remarkable. Let’s do it together!

]]> By: Michael Butler http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-43897 Michael Butler Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:56:50 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-43897 Shouldn't that be Spanishpod relaunches today? Good luck for the second time! Shouldn’t that be Spanishpod relaunches today? Good luck for the second time!

]]> By: Bob Mrotek http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-43472 Bob Mrotek Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:59:39 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/11/18/the-instinct-guy/#comment-43472 Hi JP, In order to learn anything voluntarily "you gotta wanna". The best thing that a teacher can do is to create and maintain a desire. Way back in "the olden days" when I was a Boy Scout we used to sing "it only takes a spark to get a fire going and soon all those around can warm up in its glowing". I think that the best thing that you can do with SpanishPod in order to create a spark and maintain the fire of enthusiasm is to keep the students in the forefront of your focus. I realize that you can't be present on the site twenty four hours per day, seven days per week individually. However, until SpanishPod reaches the critical mass that ChinesePod community has attained you need to be cognizant of the fact that people don't want to wait two or three days over a weekend for an answer to their questions. In the old SpanishSense there was one period I believe from September 27th until October 8th when there was no communication at all from SpanishSense administrators. Of course this was due to the holiday in China but no attempt was made to explain this to the subscribers. Meanwhile, new people were attempting to introduce themselves and ask questions and were really expecting an answer from a "teacher". Because of globalization there is obviously someone trying to access the site day and night and because of the time difference many of your customers will be active while you are sleeping and vice versa. I hope that you will take this comment to heart and provide a service that is complete, accurate, reliable, as well as timely. I have great expectations for SpanishPod after my less than adequate experience with SpanishSense and I am counting on you, Liliana, Leo, John Pasden, and Adri to not let me down. You have a good group of talented people and the potential to create something very special. I do not want to dwell on the past and will not mention SpanishSense again. My focus will be on supporting and promoting SpanishPod as much as I possibly can. In conclusion, and as my sainted mother always told me..."Onward ever, backward NEVER!" Hi JP,

In order to learn anything voluntarily “you gotta wanna”. The best thing that a teacher can do is to create and maintain a desire. Way back in “the olden days” when I was a Boy Scout we used to sing “it only takes a spark to get a fire going and soon all those around can warm up in its glowing”. I think that the best thing that you can do with SpanishPod in order to create a spark and maintain the fire of enthusiasm is to keep the students in the forefront of your focus. I realize that you can’t be present on the site twenty four hours per day, seven days per week individually. However, until SpanishPod reaches the critical mass that ChinesePod community has attained you need to be cognizant of the fact that people don’t want to wait two or three days over a weekend for an answer to their questions. In the old SpanishSense there was one period I believe from September 27th until October 8th when there was no communication at all from SpanishSense administrators. Of course this was due to the holiday in China but no attempt was made to explain this to the subscribers. Meanwhile, new people were attempting to introduce themselves and ask questions and were really expecting an answer from a “teacher”. Because of globalization there is obviously someone trying to access the site day and night and because of the time difference many of your customers will be active while you are sleeping and vice versa. I hope that you will take this comment to heart and provide a service that is complete, accurate, reliable, as well as timely. I have great expectations for SpanishPod after my less than adequate experience with SpanishSense and I am counting on you, Liliana, Leo, John Pasden, and Adri to not let me down. You have a good group of talented people and the potential to create something very special. I do not want to dwell on the past and will not mention SpanishSense again. My focus will be on supporting and promoting SpanishPod as much as I possibly can. In conclusion, and as my sainted mother always told me…”Onward ever, backward NEVER!”

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