The switch from ChinesePod Version 2 to Version 3 (V3) involved many changes. One of the most fundamental changes was in navigation. The whole site is now encompassed by a four-element horizontal menu at the top of each page:
In designing the menu, we decided that using verbs was a good way to go because ChinesePod users are typically active, independent people that want to take charge of their own learning. They do things. However, some users have found the word choice “less than intuitive.”
Well, we’re not always as stubborn as you think. After giving the current top menu some time for the users to warm up to it, we have decided that it should be improved upon. Whether it’s simply common web convention or a deep human connection with things, we feel that using nouns in the top menu would result in more intuitive navigation.
So what changes will be made? Well, first of all, “Help” doesn’t need to change. (Whew, that was easy!)
Second, “Connect” will become “Conversations.” They’re already called that in the Connect section itself, so it’s a logical change.
Third, “Explore” will change to “Lessons.” (Please keep the applause down to a dull roar.) Yes, we realize you’re here as independent students, not Lewis or Clark.
Lastly, “Study” will change to “Home.” Or maybe “Studies.” Or maybe something else? OK, actually we haven’t decided on this one yet. We are asking for input from you, the user, who uses this menu constantly.
Please let us know what you feel the best replacement for “Study” is, and why. Keep in mind that the “Study” page, as envisioned, should be a central part of the online learning experience. You may not use it much now, but we are working to turn it into something much more useful and central to the site.
As always, thank you for the feedback. We are listening…
-John
中文 Chinese
Henning Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
“Home” is perfect.
Depending on how you want to develop that it could also become a “Cockpit” one day.
goulnik (郭力毅) Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
good to hear you’re listening to feedback, bad news is this is such conservatively boring feedback. As far as I am concerned, wording was short, impactful and innovative and actionable.
John Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
To back Henning up, here’s a quote from the invaluable “Don’t Make Me Think” by Steve Krug:
Also:
Can anyone argue convincingly against that?
Bazza 白锐 Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
“My Studies”?
italiana Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
Like henning, I also like the idea of calling it “Home”.
Jeremy Uriz Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
Home works for me.
Michael Butler Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
John,
If study changes to “home” it begs the question of whose “home”. A more fitting heading would suggest premimum study services (Premier Services). Alone, the word home tells us nothing about the content of the page or who can access it.
To include both studies and lessons on the same page seems redundant.
Is there some law that says headings can’t consist of two words? IMHO, I think these are improvemnets over what you suggest
Find help
Join conversations
Find lessons
Premier services
Auntie Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Hello CPOD, thank you for consulting us. I like the idea of
“Lessons”. On that page, I’d like to ask (as nicely as possible, kiss kiss!) for:
1. An additional tab for “Recent Lessons” or “This Week” or something similar. At least 7 days of lessons, to give any curious tourist a good idea of the breadth and depth offered by a full cycle, with minimum manipulation (such as, eg., your current diagnostic test).
One good reason for considering this architecture is if you want to reach out to returning subscribers, who may have allowed their subscriptions to lapse, for different reason, and who might respond well to a page which will bring them up to speed on what’s happening these days at CPOD, lesson-wise. Bring back your lost sheep!
That “Current lessons” page ought to be the “front” tab, if only for the reason that it makes no sense WHATSOEVER to have every visit to the lesson archive land in the “Newbie” lessons. If your concern is that you want to “hook” Newbie tourists, you can do this easily enough with an attractive extra button on the front page which will lead them quickly to a tour.
2. Please, please make sure that the tabs on top of the screen match up probably with the corresponding tabs on the bottom of the screen. Unless of course that is not your intention. In any case, at the moment it seems extremely daft to me to label the two sets of tabs with apparently similar labels, only to have — say — “Explore” accessible only via clicking “Explore” and then somehow navigating to it. It’s so silly (and counter-intuitive) to have all those convenient-looking direct/shortcut (yeah…) tabs at the bottom of the page, but make it impossible for your user to get to those links save by clicking out of the “Study” tab into the “Explore” tab using the top bar.
Thanks!
Auntie Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Oh yes, why not make the “Home” page customable? So that the Premium Subscription princes can select their lesson schedule page as their home page if they want. And so that Basic Subscriber vagrants like me — or simply anybody who is more inclined to skim “headlines” — could make the “Latest Lessons” page their default home page.
One feature I really miss is having buttons on the “front page” for pdfs and audio. It comes back to my habit of skimming headlines. With a seven-day round-up of lessons, such buttons would enable me to skim through the content without necessarily having to go into each lesson and out again (yuck).
I really hope that some of these suggestions will be taken up. I have been making them all along, in various forms, and they seem to be echoed by other users. Either there is an echo on my broadband connection, or CPOD has basically tuned out for over three months to such requests. I know that Ken et al can’t accommodate all requests, but I think I will cry from frustration if I read any snotty “We sympathise but we are very sorry if you are resistant to change/ not innovative/ an*l-retentive etc etc and basically just unable to appreciate the wonderful benefits of V3 for no reason that we can fathom.”
Jazz Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
There would be no harm in an additional and explicit “Home” link. And I agree with Bazza that “My Studies” is better than “Study”; it neatly encapsulates the personalisable aspect of everything in the “Study” area. But I’m puzzled by the proposal to re-label “Study” as “Home”; “Home” is a single page, whereas “Study” is a whole section, a functional area of the site. The Vocabulary page is part of “Study”, for instance (or this is what I understand intuitively by the red highlighting of each of the top menu items in different pages). If you renamed that menu item “Home” then “Review your Vocabulary” would also be in “Home”.
I think there’s more to solving the navigation problem than a link re-label. To my mind there are simply too few links there at the top; Study, Connect, Explore and Help are section headings, not helpful navigational tools that tell me where I can go in this web site and then take me there fast. You’ve got those, of course - but hidden down at the bottom of the page in ever increasing shades of pale. Bring ‘em on!
pharmine Says:
June 20th, 2007 at 11:52 pm
I second Bazza’s “My Studies”.
kitty Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 12:19 am
Gosh, in my opinion, if you want change, you need to have the English moderator/speaker (Ken) in Newbies and Elementary be able to speak fluent Mandarin, using proper tones and pronounication.
Maybe Amber would be better moderator.
Not getting personal with the current person there. But if one is to learn Mandarin, one needs to hear the proper tones and pronounciation.
That Irish Xinjiang accent throws off a lot of my friends that are trying to use Cpod to learn Mandarin. (smile)
kmk Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 12:22 am
I would prefer RECENT or NEW with the following content :
- the list of the 3 to 10 last lessons
- the link to 3 to 10 important and recent messages in the CONNECT
- the link to the last Cpod Extra
- the link to the last Cpod News
Paul Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 2:20 am
Not only do you need a link back to “Home”, the Home page really needs to be re-designed. I think that CPOD is such a fantastic service and that the current “Home” page does everyone a dis-service through a poorly conceived design.
Why not look to examples that work such as:
http://www.chineselearnonline.com/
Don’t let the competition get ahead.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m trying to give some constructive feedback. I’m a premium subscriber who will definately re-new whatever you decide to do with the Home page.
pharmine Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 2:31 am
kitty,
I think both male and female voices are indispensable in a good podcast. I’m quite satisfied with the current hosts, but if Amber replaces Ken, the other person might better be a man, not a woman.
kmk,
You can get “the list of the 3 to 10 last lessons” here:
http://chinesepod.com/learnchinese/feed/
Philippe Hodgson Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 3:03 am
In every website I have ever visited, “Home” always refer to that website “entry page”.
The bottom of this very page where I am writing this message right now, has also a “Home” entry pointing to “praxislanguage.com”, the default entry page to Praxis Language website.
This is simply an Internet convention and I think this would be very confusing if you would suddenly change its meaning.
You could always rename it “My Home”, but then I would also prefer Bazza’s suggestion “My Studies” which I feel is very simple and without any ambiguity.
Hotpot Mike Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 3:48 am
… need both a Home (like V2) and a My Studies, in my opinion.
Hotpot Mike Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 5:02 am
I missed the last part of your post about revamping the Study page.. if you can combine links to recent posts, as well as recent podcasts and descriptions, and also the study links.. I’d definitely call that a home page.
Brendan (Peeling Mandarin) Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 8:02 am
Would “Storm in a Teacup” push the other tabs too far to the right?
trevelyan Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 10:19 am
Have you ever been to Xinjiang Kitty? Ken’s accent is WAY better than a hell of a lot of Chinese people I’ve met.
super6i Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 10:59 am
Actually, I don’t mind “Study” to remain “Study”. Although I like the way you’ve tweaked the other tabs’ names, this one seems alright by me. Am I the only one to be satisfied with the status quo here?
Also, I like Ken’s co-hosting abilities in Newbie and Elementary. I think it’s great that CPod lets us hear a learner of Chinese *learn* the language right along with us. Having two master speakers interact at a Newbie/Elem level would make it harder for me to feel a connection to the podcasts (I wouldn’t “see” myself in them; and it might even feel condescending. I’m glad you haven’t taken this route). Good job, Ken!
Auntie Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 11:45 am
Dear super6i, but wouldn’t it be even better if Jenny Zhu were not too “buhaoyisi” to correct Ken deftly and gently (and above all, respectfully), as needed? We are talking about “learning”. Nobody is arguing for bogging down learning (and confidence in learning) with an unnecessarily pedantic approach, what I am saying is that we are lucky to be dealing with a question of balance — not absolutes — which can be tweaked without anyone winning or losing.
However, if you visit the comments for the “Global Warming” lesson, diehard fans like Taipan will insist that Ken’s occasionably wobbly diction is… all an act. It’s deliberate! Another sign that it’s all for our own good, and we shouldn’t offer any dissent because the Gods always know better than us, and they always had a good reason which we just weren’t smart enough to know.
And either Taipan or Man2Two (I forget which, they sound so similar) went so far as to write a blistering reprimand to any body who dared to even offer “constructive” criticism to somebody as accomplished as Ken. To Ken’s credit, his personal reply to the “criticism” did not go quite so far.
Auntie Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Actually, I need to go further and say that Ken’s personal response to the “criticism” was pretty humble, my only “quarrel” (if you can call it that) is with any self-appointed bodyguards who rush to speak for him whenever they perceived that Ken has been disrespected in any way.
Henning Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 12:49 pm
I would like to come back to the subject
First of all I would suggest keeping the terminology as simple, straightforward, standard and consistent as possible. No overblown philosphy please!
“Home” ist the entry page. It is the place from where you can directly access all relevant content. Auntie is right if she asks for a revamping that page, but John hinted this is being worked on.
Bring in redundancy to the site, add more links to the content so I always find my way to my favourite pages without shipping down an endless click stream. Breadth always beats depth (as long as you are not going mobile).
Mid term personalization options would be helpful - I do not use all functionality (for example I do not need the Feeds and scheduling features), but like Auntie I’d love a direct access to the lesson content including the associated material (PDF, HTML, Dialogue, Fix!, Expansion, Exercises) - for certain levels.
I second Auntie’s request for also considering the bottom of the page. There could indeed be some tweaking done down there as well. Including additional links to the Forum and the Wiki. Call them “Forum” and “Wiki”.
Paolo Conti Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Auntie,
You are a moron/fool and extremely negative. People defend the host because they have valued his work. You are always miserable and complaining, and so on. When someone says he don’t agree you call him a body guard. What you want to do? Censor people?
You are the self appointed one. Why don’t you shut up for a while? I get tired of negative people like you.
Auntie Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Dear Paolo,
I have taken your comments in the best possible spirit. Nothing I can — or wish to — say.
Good luck!
Auntie Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Oh yes, there IS one thing I wish to say. Your name suggests that you might be Italian. I could be right, I could be wrong. I have between 40 - 50 Italian friends in Singapore and Italy, some of them very close family friends whose babies we have carried and have watched grow up. Yet, I have not met ONE SINGLE Italian who speaks Mandarin well. These friends come from different backgrounds, one of them has even won the “Premio Fregene” (the Italian “Booker Prize”) for his first Italian work. Your reply gives me a clue as to WHY this might be the case.
Henning Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Auntie,
although I respect your temper I think that last comment of yours was neither necessary nor appropriate. I am actually reacting quite allergic to any kind of connections between nationality and capability (or worse: between nationality and a person’s character).
Paolo Conti,
if you read Auntie’s comments carefully you will find that her comments are indeed for the most time constructive and not as negative of some of her wording might suggest.
Michael Butler Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Ouch Paolo,
Shall we step away from calling people morons and fools? It is very hard to make constructive criticism online because feelings get hurt so easily. But if you shut this forum off to constructive criticism I’ll bet that Ken would have a fit.
Most criticism here, in the long run, makes the service and the business stronger.
I don’t think Auntie meant to disparage anyone with the “self-appointed” comment although I can see how it might be taken as a personal attack.
You and anyone else certainly have a right to stand up for Ken although I suggest that he barely ever needs the help.
coljac Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Home | Lessons | Conversations | Help. Yes, that’s good.
Given that Cpod obviously aren’t asleep at the wheel when it comes to developing new ways to customize the site (as the last blog indicated), I think “home” is a fine label for something that will become more personalized as time goes on.
Rock on.
James Theron Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 1:48 pm
The ChinesePod logo is already a “home” link, but I’ll also vote for changing “Study” to “Home”.
I also vote for a return of the policy that stated post containing personal attacks will be deleted.
Erika Lee Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 2:05 pm
“Home” is the entry page.. once you’ve logged in, it either has to be “My Home” or “Study”.. what’s wrong with “Study”?
The guy that was confused about Home and Praxis.. that’s another reason why you shouldn’t call that tab “Home”.. you have several sites going on here that interlink well and some folks don’t realize when they’ve switched to a new one.
I have a few navigation issues not necessarily related to the top bar.
1. I LOVE the Extras section, which is really grammar help, but it’s hard to find. I’d be happy with it in any of these places, but not currently how it is:
* it’s own tab called “Grammar” or “Qing Wen” under the main tab “Lessons”.
* same names as above, but listed on our “Study/Home” page.
* same names as above, but it’s own main tab.
(Let me know if that doesn’t make sense.. it’s late here.)
2. I’m continually annoyed that when I add vocabulary to my list, that I’m taken away from the lesson I was on and have to use “Back.”
3. I don’t like being dumped into the “Newbie” lessons when I click “Explore” (”Lessons”). Not sure I have a suggestion for this, but if it could send me to my “Intermediate” lessons as a default (since you do know our current level) that would be more useful.
4. Also, when I click on the new “The Fix” files, which I perhaps love more than chocolate at the moment and definitely more than sleep, they open and take over the frame I’m in. So, I finish, forget that they’re not a new window/tab, close it and have to re-login to C-Pod.
5. Difficulty on the “Home/Study” page finding my bookmarked lessons.. confusion about the difference between the list on the left in the box and the main list in red in the middle/right. (I can talk more about this if you guys want to hear it, John. Will spare you all for now.)
BTW, thanks for the netvibes!
Erika Lee Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 2:11 pm
One more thing on my #5:
The confusion isn’t just between the left nav box and the main links, but our main TABS at the top. Repetition in this case is confusing. I know you’re working on that page.. the idea is a good one and I think in the end, it will be ahead of the competition.
I do somewhat miss the “week’s summary” page (that was the starting page before). Perhaps that’s where you could default to when you click “Lessons” (currently “Explore”)? It’s a thought.. I so understand you don’t want too many tabs across the top and that section already is up there.
‘Night all.
Ken Carroll Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 4:17 pm
I leave the room for a couple of hours and all hell breaks loose! (Well, just a little bit.)
I’ll leave these comments here to show us what we have to avoid in future.
I guess I’m in the public eye so I accept the criticisms when they come - just as I do, of course, the support.
I’m not sure what Paolo’s motivation was, but I have to say that using ad hominem insult is not doing me any favors. I don’t want it, so please refrain from it. (Paolo’s motivation may have been something else entirely, but either way…)
We also have to watch out for the race thing. Kitty’s comment about the ‘xinjiang/Irish’ is potentially offensive. ( Just to re-enforce it, she wants to see me removed and said that we were losing customers because of it, adding a little smile that appeared to made it seem nasty). I didn’t like it but I was going to ignore it. Then Auntie followed with her little racial comments against Paolo. Duh?
I’m no multi-culturalist, but surely we should all know better than this. If you start the race thing you get anarchy, not learning.
I can’t tell people how to behave, but I sure can delete such comments next time.
Ken Carroll
AZERDocMom 易新 Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Phew! Thank goodness you’re back, Ken!
The students run amuck when the teacher steps out. Spit balls, tossed erasers, and chalk powder everywhere!! Off to the principal’s office with the trouble-makers!!
Auntie Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Dear All, Ken has — quite rightly — read the riot act. And he didn’t need to be so kind and diplomatic regarding my “race” thing, which I am absolutely ashamed of now. I apologize unreservedly to anybody who had to read my words, regardless of whether they found them offensive (and they were offensive). Sorry.
And if there’s any room for any words to ease any residual hurt feelings anywhere regarding the remark before THAT ONE, I honestly, sincerely, was not intending to slam or insult anybody with the “self-appointed” remark. At the time I was frustrated by the ridiculousness of having “bodyguards” rise out without fail to speak for Ken and defend him at just about any comment which wasn’t glowing praise.
Having said that, there was no excuse for what I wrote, and I mean that.
Auntie Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 8:29 pm
Henning, a special apology to you, especially since you have been so supportive of me even when it must have taken all your patience to stomach my rough style (will change, I promise), and thank you for pointing out where I went wrong. Mir ist schuld, there is no excuse. Take care, all –
AuntySue Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Hey Auntie, are you sure we’re not really sisters? I admire your spirit and frankness as well as your ability to acknowledge an embarrassing error, apologise, and move forward with renewed energies to share.
As for the name labels thing, yes that’s right, the topic we’re here for… it seems to have been sorted now, but I wanted to comment that I hate the “my” thing, it’s so infantilising, and it adds ambiguity more often than clarity since on a web page it is not always clear who the “speaker” of that word is. And besides, I just hate it. So there.
Auntie Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 9:28 pm
How about “Premium Learning Centre” for the tab for the page where subscribers (especially Premium subscribers) can have their scheduled lesson — and can manage them –, together with all the features such as vocab, exercises etc? This would take care of one niggling “nit”, which is people clicking on a particular feature and then being ported directly to the “Subscriptions/ Upgrade” page. Honestly, I am not being snarky, despite my snarky comments about Basic vs Premium, this is a genuine suggestion.
Auntie Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Because then if you beef up the “Explore”/ “Lessons”/ “Lesson Archive” page to include a front page that has the past seven lessons including buttons for Basic content such as pdfs and audio (instead of an instant view of the “Newbie” lesson archive), both the Basic and Premium Subscribers would be happy. Premium subscribers can make the “Premium Learning Centre” their default “home” page, and the Basic subscribers can get to the basic info they want (eg., pdfs, MP3s, simple “headlines” for the current 7-day cycle) , quickly and with no fuss. Do please consider.
Auntie Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Oh, just one last point (sorry!), if you can make it convenient for subscribers to schedule lessons from the “Lessons/ Explore” pages, this page would also serve those Premium Subscribers who enjoy lurking in that page from time to time. But my bet is that most Premium Subscribers would be happy enough spending most of their time in the “Premium Subscribers’ Centre”, making full use of the features that — to date — are geared for in-depth study in front of the computer.
One advantage of disengaging the 7-day current archive from the “home” page, and putting it in the “Lessons” etc page is that if the current headlines are there, they won’t distract the serious Premium subscribers, who are probably more focussed on their scheduled lessons and hence likely to stay within the Premium areas.
Also, since the 7-day current archive is limited in time (no more than 7 lessons at any time), you can afford to think of including some buttons to tantalize the non-subscribers, eg. buttons with excerpts of MP3s and excerpts from the PDF. Here I am speaking as somebody who has been spoiled (happily) by amazon.com’s brilliant “excerpt”/”search” features for MP3s and print content. Don’t shut the non-subscribers/ Basic subscribers out entirely, give them a good taste of what they are missing out on without requiring them to upgrade.
And to go back to a point that I have made so many times that it is boring, do please just open your minds to the possiblity that people do often lurk in the non-paying/ Basic areas of CPOD for some time before deciding to upgrade to Premium. That may be how the loyalty is built, in reality. I am guessing that it is actually pretty rare for a user to make the decision to “go Premium” on the strength of the — what? — 14-day free trial. The “lurkers” don’t bring in the Premium bucks, but they are potential Premium subscribers.
ldfs Says:
June 21st, 2007 at 10:40 pm
AuntySue, I totally agree with you about the “my” thing. It’s everywhere and it drives me crazy. Like it or not, however, it seems to have become the de facto standard for naming a portion of a web site that is personalized or customizable.
Although it’s not perfect, I definitely think “My Studies” would be an improvement over just “Study.” The latter never made sense to me. After all, isn’t the whole web site about studying Chinese? “Study” didn’t convey to me what content would be unique to that section of the site. “My Studies” at least suggests that it is a personal portal.
In the end, however, I think it makes the most sense just to call that section “Home.” It is basically a personalized home page or “dashboard” for using the site. More importantly, I notice that once you have logged in, that is where you go when you click on the ChinesePod icon, which tells me that this is meant to be the home page. If you are calling the home page something different (Study or My Studies or whatever) that is confusing. Everyone knows what a home page is, so why not stick with the obvious?
Philippe Hodgson Says:
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:29 am
Idfs brings a very important argument here in favor of the “Home” denomination : I never realized until I read his post, that once you have logged in, a click on the ChinesePod Logo brings you to the “Study” page and *not* the entry page as I had always assumed.
And I understand now why John seemed so convinced about it right from the start (when he cites Steve krug).
The rule is simple: by convention the company logo will always bring you to the site’s home page. Everybody is now used to this basic behavior. So, in order to be consistent, another link to that same page must be called “Home”. And since that page is currently called “Study”, then it must be renamed “Home”.
All along I assumed that by clicking on the logo I would end up to the public entry page, before you log in and that is why I was opposed to the “Home” denomination for the “Study” page.
But now I vote for “Home”. I think there is no other choice.
Philippe Hodgson Says:
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:35 am
Let me rephrase
“And since that page is currently called “Study”, then it must be renamed “Home”.”
with
“And since that *link* is currently called “Study”, then it must be renamed “Home”.”
Bazza 白锐 Says:
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Looks like “Home” won then.
John Says:
June 22nd, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Yes, Bazza is right. “Home” won out.
The way the “Home” page works draws its inspiration from Flickr. For those of you not familiar with how Flickr works, the Home page looks different when you are not logged in and when you are. If you’re not logged in, you see a simple page designed to help you figure out what the site is for. If you’re logged in, you see a page which provides a variety of useful and timely links. (Still working on that part!)
Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
FuDaWei Says:
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Not so fast … John.
You’ve neglected to bring SpanishSense in line with the changes.
¡Ay, carumba!
敦禮 Says:
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:21 pm
My vote is Home/Lessons/Conversations/Help AND their Chinese equivalents. Please?
Bazza 白锐 Says:
June 26th, 2007 at 5:33 am
When can expect a Chinese version of the site?