Comments on: The medium, the message, and learning through experience http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/ Learning on Your Terms Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:48:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: 瑞清 RuiQing http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-72252 瑞清 RuiQing Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:29:40 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-72252 Hello, Is there still no Chinese translation of nethack available? If not, I think it would be a fun project to translate it. Do you really think there's much call for a Chinese netHack? Thanks! 瑞清 RuiQing Hello,

Is there still no Chinese translation of nethack available? If not, I think it would be a fun project to translate it. Do you really think there’s much call for a Chinese netHack?

Thanks!
瑞清 RuiQing

]]> By: Ken Carroll http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13793 Ken Carroll Wed, 13 Sep 2006 04:29:09 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13793 Eric, To say I'm impressed is to grossly understate the issue. That is a highly intelligent summary that distills the book very well indeed. I hope to find time tomorrow to go into the 'experience' thing in more detail.This has really been an inspiration to me to see you to do all this. Ken Carroll Eric,

To say I’m impressed is to grossly understate the issue. That is a highly intelligent summary that distills the book very well indeed. I hope to find time tomorrow to go into the ‘experience’ thing in more detail.This has really been an inspiration to me to see you to do all this.

Ken Carroll

]]> By: Eric Grimm http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13792 Eric Grimm Wed, 13 Sep 2006 03:22:09 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13792 I finally managed to get a copy of "Techniques for Teaching Vocabulary". There is some inspiring stuff in this book about how to successfully teach vocabulary. There are several other books in the same "Techniques for" series. The basic premise of the book is that second language vocabulary is hard for students to learn because "the students already have satisfactory words - in their own language". And therefore is is the teachers challenge to create a sense of need for the word. In her first activity she has the students draw lots of pictures of boys and girls on a paper. Then they take turns guessing how many are on each persons paper. "I think there are 4 girls on your page" .. "No, there are only 3". In order to play the game the students need to use the new vocabulary words: "boy" and "girl". In another activity for learning verbs is to use new vocabulary in simple commands such as "touch the floor", "go to the window". Assuming there are no classroom management issues, this is a good way to get a little more oxygen to the brain at the same time. She says that "this activity is very much like what happens when one is learning one's mother tongue." because we hear many commands from our mother before we even speak our fist work. I liked the way the activity can be generalized and used by students in small groups: "raise your right hand", "put your left hand on your head", "Bend your knees". The book is filled with activities to stimulate your imagination or just copy for your own. But I think the idea of getting students engaged in games where they need the words to win helps to reinforce the vocabulary in an "experiential" way. This book was publish in 1982, long before the market was flooded with educational software for kids. Today there are lots of programs available for kids in which they have to demonstrate their language (usually reading) skill in order to win. Many of her activities are interactive, but quite a few could inspire some good software. She divides the book equally among elementary, intermediate and advanced students. In the intermediate section she stresses the importance of avoiding the native language. And she provides lots of suggestions and advice about how you do this without losing the majority of the class. I haven't read the advanced section yet, but I think these comments might give people more of an idea about what the author has in mind when she says "experience". I think Ken’s idea is: "Kids need experience, adults need Chinesepod" I finally managed to get a copy of “Techniques for Teaching Vocabulary”. There is some inspiring stuff in this book about how to successfully teach vocabulary. There are several other books in the same “Techniques for” series.

The basic premise of the book is that second language vocabulary is hard for students to learn because “the students already have satisfactory words - in their own language”. And therefore is is the teachers challenge to create a sense of need for the word.

In her first activity she has the students draw lots of pictures of boys and girls on a paper. Then they take turns guessing how many are on each persons paper. “I think there are 4 girls on your page” .. “No, there are only 3″. In order to play the game the students need to use the new vocabulary words: “boy” and “girl”.

In another activity for learning verbs is to use new vocabulary in simple commands such as “touch the floor”, “go to the window”. Assuming there are no classroom management issues, this is a good way to get a little more oxygen to the brain at the same time. She says that “this activity is very much like what happens when one is learning one’s mother tongue.” because we hear many commands from our mother before we even speak our fist work. I liked the way the activity can be generalized and used by students in small groups: “raise your right hand”, “put your left hand on your head”, “Bend your knees”.

The book is filled with activities to stimulate your imagination or just copy for your own. But I think the idea of getting students engaged in games where they need the words to win helps to reinforce the vocabulary in an “experiential” way.

This book was publish in 1982, long before the market was flooded with educational software for kids. Today there are lots of programs available for kids in which they have to demonstrate their language (usually reading) skill in order to win. Many of her activities are interactive, but quite a few could inspire some good software.

She divides the book equally among elementary, intermediate and advanced students. In the intermediate section she stresses the importance of avoiding the native language. And she provides lots of suggestions and advice about how you do this without losing the majority of the class.

I haven’t read the advanced section yet, but I think these comments might give people more of an idea about what the author has in mind when she says “experience”.

I think Ken’s idea is: “Kids need experience, adults need Chinesepod”

]]> By: Michele http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13791 Michele Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:17:10 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13791 I'll have to see about reading this book, but in the meantime, I've been looking over some research on adult vocabulary learning, and among the essays in it is a really interesting one, a case study by William Grabe and Fredericka L. Stoller called "Reading and Vocabulary Development in a Second Language" in the book Second Language Vocabulary Acquisition, and it had some great points that confirmed what I was seeing in my own progress. For one thing, it talks about genres of reading and conversation and the way that forms gaps in vocabulary and causes problems on tests, and part of its conclusion is that adults can indeed develop reading skills without formal class instruction or tons of grammar training. I think that the study is a self-assessment by one of the authors, Grabe, evaluating his progress through a journal and vocabulary tests in learning Portuguese. It has been very helpful reading, but it also is the kind of project Chinesepod can take part in. You have a bunch of us around to do out own informal case studies of ourselves to compare and raise points. I think so far this essay has been more helpful than reading much of the more objective research because I can compare what I'm doing to what he's done and see if that worked for me or get ideas about how to make my course of study better. I’ll have to see about reading this book, but in the meantime, I’ve been looking over some research on adult vocabulary learning, and among the essays in it is a really interesting one, a case study by William Grabe and Fredericka L. Stoller called “Reading and Vocabulary Development in a Second Language” in the book Second Language Vocabulary Acquisition, and it had some great points that confirmed what I was seeing in my own progress. For one thing, it talks about genres of reading and conversation and the way that forms gaps in vocabulary and causes problems on tests, and part of its conclusion is that adults can indeed develop reading skills without formal class instruction or tons of grammar training. I think that the study is a self-assessment by one of the authors, Grabe, evaluating his progress through a journal and vocabulary tests in learning Portuguese. It has been very helpful reading, but it also is the kind of project Chinesepod can take part in. You have a bunch of us around to do out own informal case studies of ourselves to compare and raise points. I think so far this essay has been more helpful than reading much of the more objective research because I can compare what I’m doing to what he’s done and see if that worked for me or get ideas about how to make my course of study better.

]]> By: Fu Da-Wei http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13790 Fu Da-Wei Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:08:01 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13790 There's a Japanese version, Sue. https://sourceforge.jp/projects/jnethack There’s a Japanese version, Sue. https://sourceforge.jp/projects/jnethack

]]> By: AuntySue http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13789 AuntySue Mon, 11 Sep 2006 06:38:54 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13789 What we need is a Chinese translation of nethack. What we need is a Chinese translation of nethack.

]]> By: Will http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13788 Will Mon, 11 Sep 2006 00:49:59 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13788 Love the French game. Oh so simple, but ever so cool. I agree that adults learn differently from children. For a start, we already know a word for cookie and door and window, so we already have a referrent for the concept, and don't need the visual so much. On the other hand, there's a lot to be said for the similar idea of having your input data in contextual (and thus experiential) form. In CPod lessons, we get to hear our new words and sentences in context and experience them, rather than just having '农业 means farmer, 将军 means general...' type exposure. I've got a few books at home which are purely experiental learning (no other instructions) for Hebrew and Gaedhelig. They just have the picture and the sentence, starting from 'man' and a picture of a man, then 'woman' and a picture of a woman to simple sentences, this is a man, this is a woman, then the man's hat, the woman's hat etc. It's a good way of putting it all into context, and having you work it out. The disadvantage is that there's no sound, so you already have to know the Hebrew alphabet or Gaedhelig spelling conventions to work it out. But it's the perfect way to learn for someone like me, because I think of it out of the context of English, and I can extrapolate easily to other contexts. They're called "Hebrew through Pictures" and "Gaelic the Fun Way" (I think, they're at home...) Love the French game. Oh so simple, but ever so cool. I agree that adults learn differently from children. For a start, we already know a word for cookie and door and window, so we already have a referrent for the concept, and don’t need the visual so much. On the other hand, there’s a lot to be said for the similar idea of having your input data in contextual (and thus experiential) form. In CPod lessons, we get to hear our new words and sentences in context and experience them, rather than just having ‘农业 means farmer, 将军 means general…’ type exposure.
I’ve got a few books at home which are purely experiental learning (no other instructions) for Hebrew and Gaedhelig. They just have the picture and the sentence, starting from ‘man’ and a picture of a man, then ‘woman’ and a picture of a woman to simple sentences, this is a man, this is a woman, then the man’s hat, the woman’s hat etc. It’s a good way of putting it all into context, and having you work it out. The disadvantage is that there’s no sound, so you already have to know the Hebrew alphabet or Gaedhelig spelling conventions to work it out. But it’s the perfect way to learn for someone like me, because I think of it out of the context of English, and I can extrapolate easily to other contexts. They’re called “Hebrew through Pictures” and “Gaelic the Fun Way” (I think, they’re at home…)

]]> By: Eric Grimm http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13787 Eric Grimm Sun, 10 Sep 2006 23:59:43 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13787 Carl, I love this idea. It is brilliant. The possibities are endless. Eric Carl,

I love this idea. It is brilliant. The possibities are endless.

Eric

]]> By: Eric Grimm http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13786 Eric Grimm Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:56:57 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13786 Ken, I totally agree with the premise that experience is the key to language acquisition, and I am pretty sure, but not certain, that I know what you mean by “experience”. I looked for the book at my local book store to get a better idea of your meaning, but it was sold out - probably because because you blogged about it. Regardless of the exact definition, I can’t wait to hear what you have to say about how to make Chinesepod more experiential. My theory is that adults learn languages more effectively by having multiple reinforcing events in a short space of time. For example, when I learn a word from my Chinese class and then I see it used on Chinesepod, this reinforcing event significantly improves my retention. Later, I am chatting online with a Chinese speaking friend and I find a way to work this word into the conversation. Now I have a lock on it. (Unfortunately it may take a few more experiences before I get the tones right.) What makes these events effective is that they stimulate different parts of the brain and they happen before the information is forgotten. When in China, the reinforcing events might occur by chance, but those of us stuck in the other non-Chinese speaking countries need to go looking for them. An effective language program will repeat the words and patterns of the language in a variety of ways. And it will do this in a sequential manner to build on previous learnings and enhance retention. This makes a great framework, but execution is also critical. And this is why Chinesepod is great, because you put the material into a relevant and interesting setting. And you follow it up with written text and exercises to create reinforcement events. But Chinesepod lacks the coherence between lessons that would support progressive improvement. I think there are ways to create better coherence without sacrificing the quality. But, until you can bridge this gap, Chinesepod will be most effective when used to augment other learning programs – like a class. Ken,

I totally agree with the premise that experience is the key to language acquisition, and I am pretty sure, but not certain, that I know what you mean by “experience”. I looked for the book at my local book store to get a better idea of your meaning, but it was sold out - probably because because you blogged about it. Regardless of the exact definition, I can’t wait to hear what you have to say about how to make Chinesepod more experiential.

My theory is that adults learn languages more effectively by having multiple reinforcing events in a short space of time. For example, when I learn a word from my Chinese class and then I see it used on Chinesepod, this reinforcing event significantly improves my retention. Later, I am chatting online with a Chinese speaking friend and I find a way to work this word into the conversation. Now I have a lock on it. (Unfortunately it may take a few more experiences before I get the tones right.)

What makes these events effective is that they stimulate different parts of the brain and they happen before the information is forgotten. When in China, the reinforcing events might occur by chance, but those of us stuck in the other non-Chinese speaking countries need to go looking for them. An effective language program will repeat the words and patterns of the language in a variety of ways. And it will do this in a sequential manner to build on previous learnings and enhance retention.

This makes a great framework, but execution is also critical. And this is why Chinesepod is great, because you put the material into a relevant and interesting setting. And you follow it up with written text and exercises to create reinforcement events. But Chinesepod lacks the coherence between lessons that would support progressive improvement. I think there are ways to create better coherence without sacrificing the quality. But, until you can bridge this gap, Chinesepod will be most effective when used to augment other learning programs – like a class.

]]> By: Carl http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13785 Carl Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:34:05 +0000 http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2006/09/10/the-medium-the-message-and-learning-through-experience/#comment-13785 I think the basic problem with the comparison with how we learn when we are infants, and how we learn when we are adults, is that as infants we were fully immersed in the world we were trying to learn (of which language was a part); but as adults we can lack the immersion in the second language (assuming one is not living in China) and can lack the urgency (we can already communicate in our non-mandarin environment). Also infants are best considered as full-time learners; whereas adults generally have a day job, a night life, obligations to others etc... For that reason, as adults, we need tricks and shortcuts. The shortcuts are having things explained that could otherwise take a while to learn through experience. The tricks are about rigging one's environment to create opportunities for more experiencial learning (music, TV, etc...) which otherwise would not happen during the ordinary course of one's day. ChinesePod managed to straddle both those categories, mixing some explanation with eavesdropping on someone else's conversation. My point is, that when the comparison is made with how infants learn, the approach that follows needs to take into account the radically different nature of the situation adult learners are in. If immersion and experience are being recommended, then unless I am given advice on how to achieve this, then I can only assume I am to be given free tickets to China, with accommodation, as part of the recommended package... In my youth, on my old 32k BBC Micro, I had a text adventure game called "French on the run", set in occupied france, in which you went through a number of multiple-choice scenarios, trying to pass yourself (a British operative) off as a native Frenchman. The game was not especially successful, but that is where I think the future lies: in online gaming whereby the language of the game is Mandarin, and in where earlier levels or tasks require simpler language than later ones. I have some plans to create a game like this; but currently zero time to develop it. So feel free to steal the idea in the meantime... here's the first level task: the first NPC you encounter wishes you to introduce yourself to them. The second task: this NPC would like a cup of green tea - you need to find the tea shop and ask the person at the counter for it, and pay for the tea. If you can't find the tea shop, you can always ask for directions off one of the other players (so more practice, if non-mandarin is disallowed). Etc... to progress in the game, you immerse in the game and therefore the language. What do you all think? I think the basic problem with the comparison with how we learn when we are infants, and how we learn when we are adults, is that as infants we were fully immersed in the world we were trying to learn (of which language was a part); but as adults we can lack the immersion in the second language (assuming one is not living in China) and can lack the urgency (we can already communicate in our non-mandarin environment). Also infants are best considered as full-time learners; whereas adults generally have a day job, a night life, obligations to others etc…

For that reason, as adults, we need tricks and shortcuts. The shortcuts are having things explained that could otherwise take a while to learn through experience. The tricks are about rigging one’s environment to create opportunities for more experiencial learning (music, TV, etc…) which otherwise would not happen during the ordinary course of one’s day. ChinesePod managed to straddle both those categories, mixing some explanation with eavesdropping on someone else’s conversation.

My point is, that when the comparison is made with how infants learn, the approach that follows needs to take into account the radically different nature of the situation adult learners are in. If immersion and experience are being recommended, then unless I am given advice on how to achieve this, then I can only assume I am to be given free tickets to China, with accommodation, as part of the recommended package…

In my youth, on my old 32k BBC Micro, I had a text adventure game called “French on the run”, set in occupied france, in which you went through a number of multiple-choice scenarios, trying to pass yourself (a British operative) off as a native Frenchman. The game was not especially successful, but that is where I think the future lies: in online gaming whereby the language of the game is Mandarin, and in where earlier levels or tasks require simpler language than later ones.

I have some plans to create a game like this; but currently zero time to develop it. So feel free to steal the idea in the meantime… here’s the first level task: the first NPC you encounter wishes you to introduce yourself to them. The second task: this NPC would like a cup of green tea - you need to find the tea shop and ask the person at the counter for it, and pay for the tea. If you can’t find the tea shop, you can always ask for directions off one of the other players (so more practice, if non-mandarin is disallowed). Etc… to progress in the game, you immerse in the game and therefore the language.

What do you all think?

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