Here’s something I want to ask: Do you generally find it easier to make female friends than male friends in China? I’ve been here for 12 years and I have some male friends, but not many, and I have to say no close ones. Culturally I’ve always found a gap there somehow. Most of the foreigners that I know here seem to be in the same boat.
By contrast, I have usually found it easier to make female friends here. (Now that I’m married I don’t exactly run around bonding with anyone, but I think you get my point.)
Obviously, this is a cultural issue. I’ve thought about whether or not this might be a language issue, but I’ve concluded that it is not.
I’d like to hear your theories/experiences on why it is the case. Your observations are welcome.
Ken Carroll
Hey Ken,
I’m glad to hear this coming from you. I have certainly found it’s harder to have close male friends in China than female, to the slight chagrin of my wife. I have one experience to share of my befriending a Chinese guy from the countryside that ended in a bit of a disaster. My friend and I bonded quickly, and soon I found that the commitment he had made to our relationship and expected from me in return was far greater than what I was willing to give.
I have come to understand what went wrong through a chapter in the book “Encountering the Chinese” (Hu and Grove. Intercultural Press 1999) in the chapter “Making friends with the Chinese”:
P.62 Formality Expectations
“A problem often faced by Americans beginning a relationship with a Chinese concerns levels of formality. Early in social relationships, the Chinese act in a relatively formal manner toward each other.”
“Although Chinese who have had no previous experience working with Americans may at first be taken aback by their informality, the major problem is not simply that Americans fail to act in a formal manner. The Chinese are not necessarily offended by the discovery that a newly met American is exuberant, smiles a lot, and fails to use the customary formal styles of address.
“The major problem is more subtle. As a Chinese gradually establishes a friendship with another Chinese, their formality dissolves very slowly into informality, which is a nonverbal affirmation that the two acquaintances are deepening their relationship into something closer and more durable. Accordingly, when an American acts in an informal fashion at the very beginning of a relationship, a Chinese is led to believe that the American intends to leap over the usual formal preliminaries in order to form a close, durable relationship without delay. That is rarely the American’s intent. The outcome may be that within the subsequent few weeks, the Chinese experiences acute disappointment and feels critical of the American for being ungenuine and superficial.”
P.68 Friendship Obligations
“Forming a close Chinese-American friendship, an affective tie, is not terribly difficult. But maintaining a friendship that is fully satisfactory to the Chinese partner may be difficult for Americans, whose expectations of friendship differ from those of the Chinese. Americans who wish to establish friendships with the Chinese are seeking admittance to one of the other person’s ingroups (in this case, a group of close friends), just as they would when establishing a friendship in the United States. But as soon as the American becomes clearly identified by the Chinese as an ingroup member, the expectations of the Chinese partner regarding the extent of their mutual dependence vastly increase. Many Americans, especially men, are not prepared for such a high level of mutual dependence outside the context of their nuclear families.”
–
Just as Hu and Grove predicted, my friend experienced acute disappointment after I continuously failed to meet his friendship expectations and eventually wrote me a long letter telling me so. I wrote him back to apologize and tried to explain that as a busy, young American it was difficult for me to devote the kind of time and attention to him that he wanted from me. We still see each other from time to time, but he is a bit wary of me now and is very careful in maintaining a certain level of formality with me.
So why is it easier to have female friends? I think the main reason is that, since I am male, their expectations for a relationship with me are different than those of Chinese males. They aren’t expecting to spend almost every waking moment with me, and aren’t disappointed when I don’t see them very often.
Great comment, Kevin. I agree with your idea; male/male relationships in China are much different than in the West and tend to take an uncomfortable level of closeness for many male foreigners. I think age also has a good deal to do with this. I’m a very young teacher in China and many of my students are the same age as I am. Because we’re the same age, I find it’s easy to make friends with students outside of my classes and hang out. Almost all of my friends are guys and I find it easier here to make friends with guys. There’s such a gender divide sometimes I’d almost feel uncomfortable hanging out with girls the same way I would back in the states!
I think it’s much harder to make friends with Chinese men who are in a different place in life than you. If you’re not married, it will be hard to have married friends. If you’re not single, it will be hard to have single friends. Age is important as well; it will be hard to be friends with men who are more than a several years on either side of your age. Interests and income play a factor in this as well, just like they would in the West. Do others find this to be true or do you have friends radically dissimilar to ya’ll?
Good advice to know; cultural differences can cause such problems if you’re not aware of them. I’ll make sure I’m aware of such things with my language partner, although he’s been here for a while now, and so won’t necessarily have the same expectations of us Westerners, because he sees how we do things. I suppose there are similar misunderstandings all over the place. I’ve read that it’s impolite to smile at someone you’re not friends with in France, so I’d look like a simpleton if i did it the Aussie way and smiled to reassure someone I’ve just met. I’ve found it easier to make friends with Chinese women than men, but I’ve also had a lot more interaction with Chinese women (my language classes are dominated by women…i think most language classes are like that though…). Could it have something to do with the lower expectation? A Chinese woman won’t expect to have a close (friendly) relationship with a man without romantic expectations, so they know it’s just the way we are. We’re not making a close friendship, but rather trying for marriage or being nice. Perhaps that doesn’t sound quite like how I mean it, but I can’t think of a better way to express that.
As an Aussie, I thikn that is a problem that happens for us in places other than China as well. We have a reputation for being relaxed and informal, even in formal situations, because it is meant as a reassurance. But that’s easily misinterpretable as so many other things, from thinking that we don’t take anything seriously, to thinking that we’re trying to pick up. It’s usually not the case. We’re being nice. Well, some of us anyway.
Ken,
I also found this while living in Taiwan. I did spend quite a bit of time thinking about it and it was a reasonably regular topic of conversation among the expat community. No one really could come up with an all round answer. Mostly I found it actually had to do with a willingness to be wrong. Most of the expats couldn’t speak enough Chinese to conduct a Chinese conversation and I found when speaking to a Chinese guy if he said something in English and I didn’t understand then the conversation would quickly die out. Where as when speaking to girls they would tend to just try and explain it a different way and laugh about it.
Sometimes I think the fact that having Chinese girls for friends was an impediment to better relationships with Chinese guys all of it’s own… once escalating alarmingly after a shouting match between the two Chinese girls I was with and some guys in a pub (very little of which I understood at the time).
Ken,
Here are random comments from me on this subject. I like women more than men, most of the time. So even without any thought of having more than a conversation, I much rather talk to women. Thay are very different from me so I am always curious why they are the way they are. And they smell good too! Secondly, it is less likely we compete in anything. Being an alpha type guy this is nice. I do not have to prove I am smarter, faster, stronger……
BTW I want to know if I am not alone in finding out my wife had many beautiful friends who she did not introduce me to until after we were married.
I found when I was single and looking for a mate or now just being an isolated white male ( my wife comes and goes from the States) in Taiwan it makes far more sense to do what I like to do and perhaps meet people who share the same likings. I think being the Western Guy in Jubei or Shanghai does not make it easy to be in situations where you will be around like minded local people. How many Chinese will go play golf on a Sunday? Men often use sports as a bonding catalyst. Sitting in a sports bar it is kind of easy to at least strike up a conversation I suppose. But in Hsinchu, the few times I have been taken to a sports bar, there are no Taiwanese guys just Taiwanese women looking for a western guy.
I have met guys I would not yet call friends but at least I hang with. I love to bike, always have. Weekends I get up and go at least one of the two days. Now I ride every other weekend one day with a group of middle age Taiwanese men up into the hills. I am the only Western guy. Common interest biking and for them looking stupid in lycra. But we do have a good time biking as well as comparing bikes and stuff.
When I was younger clearly having kids in school and all the activites that go with that meant making friends with other parents. I am not sure how you are handling the schooling but I would guess the big expat community in Shanghai with familes all kind of stay together? I was not surprised to be in a place on Ju Lu Lu on a Sunday early afternoon and it was wall to wall western families.
So I would say from my experiences it is harder as an expat to make friends than at home not because of the language issues, financial status, looking different but instead sharing common interests.
Mike in Jubei
To be honest, I never know what to say to the guys here. I’ve been in bars or restaurants or in the office with them and I really do not know what to say. Don’t get me wrong, Chinese guys are friendly. There’s no problem at all with this, but we never seem to hang out or stuff. It just dfoesn’t seem that thye are interested in that. I have no idea what thyeare interested in. What are they interested in? Can anyone tell me? Sometimes they come across as naieve, also. I think Chinese are quite reserved and convervative so it is unlikely to bond if they don’t open up. I’ve been here 3 years and I don’t speak Chinese much.
Giorgo’s comments are interesting. I’ve heard a lot of Chinese peopel comment that they don’t know what to say when in company with foreigners. And if you ask the question “What do American men talk about?” in a social situation, I have no idea how to answer that.
I also think the question of ‘naievete” is interesting. I absolutely hate relativism, but I must say the answer here is certainly relative: neat, earnest, Chinese guys that have gone to the west to study have oftern remarked on the absurdity of grown men with nose-rings and tattoos smoking pot instead of going to lectures and things like that. The Chinese guy who is there to get on with his study does not see himself as the naieve one in this situation.
Culture is such a tough one toi crack!
I do not at all share this experience. I found some Chinese friends and I never had a feeling of unease on the way. Maybe in this regard Germany is closer to China than the US culturewise and the “shock” is not as big (on other dimensions the gap is much higher, though, I guess).
One tip from personal experience: As always beer acts as a perfect good door-opener (but maybe I just say this because of my origins…). Actually they have all good sorts of tasty beer in China (the most interesting I tried so far was beer made with “ku gua”). Just be careful with Bai Jiu…
@Ken: I think, unfortunatelly that changed. We still see the diligent, hard working (naïve??) Chinese students here, but in recent years a different type of Chinese student entered the University - one actually not very keen in studying. I suppose this reflects both economical and social changes in mainland China: More families are able to send their children abroad but on the other hand those students do not feel the cultural pressures as much as the student-generations before them to study hard & fast.
It’s parrots! Yes! What you’re talking about is exactly like befriending parrots. It all makes sense now. No I’m not saying that Americans are like parrots, but the process, I can relate to it now.
Being a cloistered Aussie, if you introduced me to a king I’d be likely to say “g’day what a great hat!” and grab him in a bear hug if nobody reminded me not to, and I’ve always had trouble relating to people who hide their feelings, I distrust them and eventually despise them. But I relate well to parrots, and now I get it, how it works.
Parrots, particularly the larger cockatoo types, have the intellectual and emotional development of a 6 year old human (according to recent science), and the language skils of a 2 year old speaking and a 6 year old listening (from my own experience). Apart from their differently constructed forelimbs and mouths, what makes them so very different? Culture! You can’t walk up to a strange parrot, no matter how tame and affectionate, and offer to scratch it on the head. You’d lose at least one finger tip. It’s too quick. You have to sit nearby and look the other way until they become curious about you, and gradually build up familiarity. It’s just the way parrots are. I don’t have to accept it, I know it.
If you take-it-slowly as fast as you can, and it is a receptive bird, you run the risk of it thinking you’ve formed a special bond. When you leave and come back it will hate you, because in its mind you’ve made a bonding commitment (what? who me? It was only a couple of hours!) and then let it down very badly. You might never be able to get near that parrot again.
Why could I relate so well to parrots but not anticipate and deal with a similar cultural difference in humans? With parrots there’s so many other cues that they’re different, it’s obvious that their cultural expectations, including those of friendship, will be different no matter how human-like they behave. Any glimpses of cultural similarity are a delightful surprise. But with humans, they look the same as me, do the same things,… I guess sometimes we don’t have the problem of regarding foreigners as being more different than they are, but the problem of making too many assumptions of similarity, the wrong assumptions both times. It might help to share a snack of sunflower seeds with a new friend, of either kind, to remind yourself that there are always undiscovered differences and similarities.
Now I’m not real sure about this male/female part. Is Ken asking the blokes (or everyone?) if they find opposite sex friendships easier than same sex, or is he saying something about the nature of males and females in China?
It does make a difference with parrots: many distinctly prefer males and some prefer female humans, not necessarily being the opposite sex. Their attitudes can be extreme, biting all males and loving all females or vice versa. Buggered if I know how they can tell the difference!
And while we’re on that subject… A couple of people mentioned Chinese classes being mostly females. Is it my imagination or are there mostly males here?
I have never been in a language class dominated by men. It would be creepy.
What a treat reading all this! I’m a Chinese-American (born in NYC) and went to Taipei recently to visit family, and had a rather puzzling experience with my young male cousin. After I was trying hard for small-talk–we were in a small dinner group, and it looked more and more like he was interested only in joking around with his girlfriend and sister rather than with addressing me and my Italian friend in any way–he pointedly asked me why I was asking him his opinion on all sorts of things. At first I was mystified by this–why invite somebody to dinner if you’re going to ignore them the entire night?–and attributed what I perceived to be his rudeness to our obvious cultural and age differences (he’s only 7 years younger, but anybody in her thirties is I suppose an old lady to somebody in his mid-twenties…), but still it did make me think about how young Taiwanese men act, young relative to my perspective that is, and remembered reading something a while ago about young Taiwanese men tending to retain their adolescent psychology well into their thirties. Now, tho this can be true for American men as well, Americans seem to focus on stages of maturity, whereas I have no idea how Taiwanese men (or Asian men, for that matter) view psychological growth. (”Psychology,” “maturity” — cultural differences, indeed?) I’m totally stumped.
BUT: Another reason he ignored me and my friend was because he just didn’t want to host us, as my mom had encouraged/harangued him to treat us to dinner!
Ken, I am so with you on this. When I was in Taipei as a 20-year old, I worked at the Taipei World Trade Center (CETRA) for my friend’s Uncle (if you could call it work). I bonded strongly with all of the secretaries (all female) and had absolutly no relationship with any guy in the office. Years pass, and I end up in Shanghai to outsource some printing. And I can sort of see the same situation beginning to arise. But this time I was saved: basketball. I started playing basketball with a coupld of the guys, and so I had at least some semblance of a relationship with native Chinese guys for the first time. The fact that I was only there for 4 weeks obviously makes it difficult for me to judge whether or not we would have become true friends or simply basetball acquaintances. I think the biggest barrier is the perception of cultural difference more than even the actual cultural difference. If travelling has taught me anything, it is that people are really at core the same no matter where you go. They run the same gamut of personalities that you find wherever you hail from. Feeling like you do not fit in or belong is a powerful deterrent to establishing intercultural friendships. I think many, many mainland Chinese have that feeling in spades at this point.
I have no idea what Henning is talking about thinking that German and Chinese culture have such an affinity. I think he may just be speaking for himself. When I was in Shanghai, I immediately hit it off with a whole passle of German/Austrian guys who clearly did not have any native friends. Moreover, I have found that I hit it off with German guys more than any other Europeans while I am in Shanghai (if that means anything).
I’m a woman living in Taiwan, and I’ve had trouble making female friends! I’ve dated men here (that’s another story), but getting close with Chinese/Taiwanese women has been trying and unrewarding. There’s always a wall between us and they never stop treating me like a special guest, or like a child, who can’t figure out how to do anything by herself, even after knowing me for 3 years. After my first year here, I gave up and made much better friends among Westerners who could be more relaxed and less formal and awed.
This could lead to an odd new twist to Ken’s theory - perhaps it’s just easier to date in China than to make friends with people of your own gender (assuming you’re dating the opposite gender)?
Or is it just that you know what the other gender is expecting (both of you are thinking of dating the other…), so there’s less complication of different expectations?
Intercultural communication is easy enough. Intercultural friendhsip requires work. It’s worth the effort though.
First of all, let me thank all of you that have contributed to this discussion. I have found it genuinely surprising that there are men in the world who can talk sensibly about relationships, without the discussion slipping into the all too familiar prurient fantacies that some seem unable to withold.
It is apt that I have discoverd this site on the eve of making my first visit to China.I realise that the topic is about male friends in China and what has been said so far has been useful in informing me about how I shall need to configure my mind when I arrive. But if I may, I would like to have your opinions/experiences about relationships with Chinese women;It may help me handle the inevitable.Even if, as a Westerner, I manage to overcome the language barrier, I will take it as read that any close relationships will, and can only be, an uphill battle. How are cross cultural relationships viewed in China ? Do chinese men have problems with Chinese women dating/marrying Westerners ?
It may help if I reveal a incurable charater trait:
Whenever faced with choices, I have never been able to take the easy path. It’s not that I do not recognise that there is a choice, but something inside me tells me to take the hardest route.- going over a mountain instead of around it, if you follow me.
I lived in China for more than 2 years and I didn’t make a single, close, male, Chinese friend. I certainly had aquaintences and perhaps 2 or 3 that i would call friends, but no one really close. I suppose the closest was a roommate I had for 3 months or so. He and I worked at the same school and would often sit around drinking beer and chatting in the evenings, but even after 3 months I still didn’t feel that I really “knew” the guy. It was like everything about our relationship was superficial or formal.
I could almost liken it to someone storing a box in your house for a few months. You walk by it every day. You put stuff on it. You sit on it to tie your shoes, but after the 3 month you realize that you have no idea what’s in the box. You know exactly what it looks like, how much it weighs, the dimensions, what’s written on it, but as to it’s contents, you have no idea.
That was my roomate.. a total mystery to me. I guess we just didn’t connect. Nor did any other Chinese male. Girls on the other hand… no problem whatsoever. Connected with lots of them. Never felt uncomfortable, or at a loss of things to say, whereas with the males, I can never think of anything to talk about.
In Canada, my friend base is almost strictly males, save for girlfriends and wives of my male friends. There are a few girls here that are my friends, but they are far outnumbered by males. Weird, eh?
seAn
HEY! Is Ken back from vacation yet! I think Aggie was gone for a while too. And I miss crazi-Steve and ever sophisticated Haruka! Aric–can’t seem to get rid of him, no he even shows up at my house on Saturdays….
Hey, I’ve been reading through this, and it’s really interesting.
I just want to contribute my own ideas from a slightly different slant. Recently i’ve been chatting to a lot of chinese people through Skype. One of the things that has surprised me is the friendliness of the girls. Compared to the guys i’ve spoken to, they seem to be far more outgoing, informal, and interested in making friends. On the other hand, the guys seem to be far more formal. So, yes, it’s a bit strange. I feel I have made a few good friends - but they’re all girls. As far as the guys are concerned - they seem to be friendly acquaintances at the most, but not ‘friend’ friends.
This makes me wonder - What are the social dynamics like in China between males and females??
Mashhood
Interesting discussion. I am an American man with my american family living in southern China. Been working for an american owned co for about a year hear. I too have many acquaintances and “friends” here, but not close ones. But this was typical of my busy life in the US as well. My deepest friends in life are a couple of friends in the US from college or business where we share values and experiences. However, I can go for a few months and not talk to them and when we do talk it can be quite deep.
I wonder if most of the comments above are related to language barriers - so much of deeper friendships is in picking up on subtle non-verbal communication which is extremely difficult to learn in a new culture.
But, I would like to build some friendships.
I’d like to turn the conversation a bit, could we move beyond the shared experience that it is difficult with men and easier with women… - and discuss what DOES help build friendships? What have y’all found helpful in building friendships with Chinese men?
l would really like to confirm that its so hard for me to make friends.
This is a very interesting topic, and obvious was a big hit, at least half a year ago. Just came across it and while I don’t have time to read all the responses, I thought I would add my two cents.
I had noticed too that in China, as well as Tawian, that is is so much easier to make frineds with the girls than the guys. Funny how in America I find it much easier to talk to guys than girls, so agian, it isn’t because of being single and finding the girls cute or something.
One thing is that I find it much easier to understand Chinese girls, as well as older women my parents age, and they have ALOT more patience and willingness to admit mistakes in their language (sometimes being way too modest).
I decided, when studying Chinese at a school where the classes are one-on-one, that I should at least have one teacher that was male (and let’s see… there were 20 females teachers and 2 male teachers…so wasn’t much of a variety to chose from) so that a) I could understand their speech (slightly faster and often a stronger accent than women if they have one) b) and also know what they like to talk about. I have to say, I didn’t enjoy my class, and felt intimidated when I made mistakes or taked simple things in Chinese.
So, anyway, at first I too thought that I only talked to Chinese girls cuz well, I’m a guy. But than I too concluded that it wasn’t that, especially since I found American women also had an easier time making friends with the Chinese girls. I do wish I could understand Chinese men more though.
Ken: I have been downloading your lessons for almost six months now.
I am moving to Chongqing soon, and will quite definitely sign up, I feel like a cheat sometimes, getting all this value added info. Through your Saturday blogs.
, I am getting to really feel
knowledgeable about your staff.
My wife is Chinese and I can understand some of the response above. All the folks I have met through her are women. They are in their fifties, sixties, divorced.
I find that Chinese men seem to drift away from their older wives, or are divorced from them. Leaving, in fact, a broad spectrum of females. Left over from another era of multi-wives?
When one of the women are married, again, the other females are often visting the re-married one. So eventually the expat male has many females that have become, non-romantic, friends.
As your above contributors state, I have marveled at this experience.
I am a retired Anthropologist so perhaps my interest is un-remarkable, but seems patterned, to me.
I can understand their curiosity; as you are fond of saying to Jenny, “it is indeed differential culture we are experience”.
Thanks. You guys are really great. Ron
It’s clear to me after living in China and Taiwan; if you want to male friends DO SOMETHING active together. Don’t drink coffee together and don’t talk about Chinese women together. Actually do something. Play games together, go biking, go fishing, play badmitton, sweat. I won’t rule drinking out but my advice is the water should be coming out not going in.
Is this really such a big mystery? Women and men (sometimes) talk; men sweat, laugh, and play games together.