I have been working for ChinesePod for two weeks now, so I figured it was time to give a shout out to the community and explain a little what I’ve been working on.
I have been hired as an “academic consultant.” That means I am working with the ChinesePod team in all kinds of ways to make the podcasts’ educational content even better and more useful to students, and also to expand the role of the learning center. We both know those exercises could be better, and I want to help make that happen.
Ken recently wrote about the lexical approach. I agree that the lexical approach is a very effective way to approach language learning, but to be honest I’m a little uncomfortable totally de-emphasizing explicit grammar instruction. Personally, I like grammar. I actually like to see those patterns written down. I know some people find grammar disgusting, but I hate the idea of doing away with it. Different people learn best in different ways, and I hope that in the months to come I can help satisfy you students out there who, like me, hunger for grammar instruction. I think the lexical approach and some grammar instruction can really complement each other well on ChinesePod.
To that end, I have been researching Chinese textbooks (and also grilling my readers on Sinosplice) in order to add to ChinesePod’s Chinese pedagogy resources. The ultimate goal is to replace the current “grammar bank” with an all-new integrated ChinesePod grammar guide. Anyone who hates grammar can ignore it, but for you people who want it, grammar instruction specific to each lesson will only be a click or two away.
As for podcast content, I’m currently focusing more on the advanced and intermediate levels, using my own language learning experience to give input about what is useful and what is not. This is especially important at the advanced level, as advanced learners have been learning Chinese a while and have very specific demands. I will especially enjoy working on the advanced lessons, because to some degree I will be helping to design lessons for my own level. This is great, because I have clear ideas about what I want and need to learn about.
Revisions are already in motion for the review exercises. I’ve started by helping to revise the existing exercises, but entirely new exercises are on the way too. One of the major principles behind my revisions was taking the exercises beyond the true/false, multiple choice, one-to-one answer mode. We want the exercises to be more than just guessing… we want to get those brain juices flowing (or something). The brand new exercises will be fun as well. To give you an idea, I did some of my research for that on NewGrounds.com.
Anyway, I’ll be posting here from time to time, and I’m excited about the changes that are on the way (so you can be too!).
Hi,
I’m particularly glad to hear about the grammar
whilst I strongly believe in the approach which has been advocated here in general, I find it useful to supplement it by working through the ‘A Practical Chinese Grammar’. I tend not to worry about understanding or applying the grammar I read about straight away, and instead just speed through it so that the constructions won’t seem entirely alien when they eventually come up. Then I just wait for examples to come up in the podcast dialogues, at which point things generally fall into place. For me grammar is all about learning how I could string together the vocabulary I know in new ways… Many others probably associate grammar with rote learning of meaningless declensions etc…, something Mandarin fortunately lacks.
I also find the grammar aids my listening in setting expectations for the kind of word I expect to hear given what I have already heard.
Look forward to seeing what happens,
Carl
I too find knowing about grammar a very helpful aid to listening. I just received a copy of ‘Practical Chinese Grammar’ a few days ago. It is a useful reference.
Let’s say you are having a simple conversation about traveling or where you came from. From this context, the word 国(guo2, country) will likely be on a beginner’s mind. When the more advanced Chinese speaker starts using 过(guo4), while talking or asking about past experiences, is the beginner going to think “how does a country fit into this?” instead of “have I ever done that?” I know I would have.
Recognizing grammar pattern in conversation with different vocabulary than you may have practiced with is quite rewarding. Next you’ll start thinking “It’s starting to make sense.” Another step closer to thinking in your new language.
I remember how incredibly boring and a waste of time grammar lessons were when I was a child. I make no claims of being a grammar expert in any language. However I now appreciate that without knowing a little grammar, I have no real way of comparing or contrasting sentences between different languages.
I use Chinesepod for listening practice more than anything else. Sometimes after my regular class, I think I still don’t really understand the lesson. Then I may hear a podcast that uses a grammar pattern from my class lesson and I recognize it immediately. This is usually not the lesson of the podcast, but greatly helps me.
I think there is absolutely no problem with treating grammar in our instruction. In many ways it depends on what you mean by ‘grammar’. Let me try to elaborate.
My concerns about grammar have as much to do with how it is presented, as with the concept of grammar itself. Having said that, there is a school of thought that maintains that grammar doesn’t even exist - only grammaticalized lexis. (The topic of another discussion.)
After 20 years in the classroom, my approach is eclectic. I now teach less grammar than before but I would never remove it entirely from the syllabus. Different learners have different needs, different learning styles, different preferences. (Learning style is yet another topic I really want to look at some point!!!) What works for me may not work for you. If grammar works for you, fine. (I can attest that it doesn’t do much for the majority of people if presetned in present format.)
A second point to consder is variety. Even if you do not like grammar it is perfectly OK to delvie into it from time to time and add a new dimension to your study. It’s always good to approach input and learning itself in different ways - at the very least for the purpose of experimenting. It keeps things fresh and can open new doors to learning.
A 3rd point: Grammar can be made cognitive! It is entirely possible to teach grammar in a top-down, inferential way, to allow learners to discover grammar patterns (as opposed to plonking the patterns down before them and telling them to learn them). To me this is a very cool possibility that I want to explore in collaboration with John and the team.
GRAMMAR - From my posts here on Cpod I sometimes get the impression that people think I like grammar, actually it’s the opposite. If I never talked about a past-participle I would be none the sadder. But I think variety and perseverence over the long hall seems key to learning for me so I try to mix things up a bit for myself. What I find wonderous about grammar is that it’s there, what is tortoureous about it is the way it is typically explained. I have never been able to do those subsitution drills where you put ‘here’ 10 different adjectives, I just stare blankly at the teacher unable to output. I guess as with almost any subject, when it’s explained well and in an interesting way, then it becomes fun and meaningful.
ADVANCED - I’m sure you’re extremely busy, and we’re all impatiently looking forward to the changes, but could you (John) spend a few paragraphs on what your experience has told you is useful and what is not at the intermediate/advanced levels. Just enough for us to mill over a bit. And btw, for those Cpoders who are asking ‘Who is this John?”, take a more in-depth look at his website www.sinosplice.com , he has a very interesting history that I think we are all going to soon reap the rewards of! (Hah–and I ended this with a preposition)
COGNITIVE - Do you think kids are ‘cognitive’ when they are learning a language? I know the history of academics has pew-pawed how brainy kids really are. Is it that they just actually pay better attention that adults. (And hey when they’re bored they don’t waste time being bored!) I think adults like to ‘think’ things thru, but I’m still looking for the lazy-I’m a sponge-approach to learning language. You know, the kind where I can sit on the beach, sip coconuts and become uber-fliuent!
Every learner is different and it is certainly a good thing to see that everyone agrees on that
I like grammar is it can explain in clear terms some of the things that you wouldn’t get by yourself. I hate grammar when it is focusing on the multitude of exceptions and special cases that every language has. I also like grammar to be very practical, for me that is making itself understood by examples rather that by absorbing the rules. What works for me is learning by repetition, either writing or repeating out loud key structures and words.
I’m looking forward to all this new stuff
I used to hate grammar, but now I simply refuse to study it. End of story. Life is too short and too pleasureful to allow grammar to upset it. I would fight tooth and nail to avoid being subjected to a grammar lesson.
So why then did I leave the very appealing beginner book on the shelf, and spend my book money and my lunch money, instead, on a large academic style Chinese grammar book, plus a Shcaum’s grammar book to help me understand it?
Because, when I have a grammar question, I can’t stand not being able to find out the answer. And in general a simple answer is not enough for me, I must know all about it, to put my little useful bit into context of the larger reality. And just because, at that time that I want to, I must.
Ken’s “top down” approach is already sending me into frenzies of research and ecstasies of discovery. But it doesn’t feel like studying grammar. It’s solving riddles, finding rules and order and sparks of disorder and making the world more predictable after having noticed a hint of the pattern already. By working out how someone else’s pattern works, and knowing its scope, so I can own and use that pattern myself, competently. If that’s learning grammar, somebody should have told my school teachers.
… so yeah, I think it is good to have access to as much grammar info and explanation as possible, and I doubt that it would have that bitter “grammar lesson” taste in this environment where the learners are basically free to control their learning. Some of us might over-react to the G word (+/-) until we see how it feels, but by then the value will be there for all to see.
Sue,
I’m delighted to hear that the top down approach is working for you. The word ‘discovery’ is key. People are far more motivated by discovery than by instruction or explanation. One of the big ideas behind the Learning Center is the ‘Explore ‘ bit. The internet is uniquely suited to this type of discovery learning as you link fro mone thign to the next. All we have to do is put some content out there and link it in such a way that you are free to explore to your heart’s content. Grammar doesn’t have to be presented in the horrendous old ways of the past. I’m really keen to show that a different way is possible - ‘cognitive grammar’??? (Maybe I should patent that one.)
Ken
I’m not sure one can go from Newbie to Advanced only using cpod if there is not more on-line grammar help at some point. Same goes for drawing those nasty noodle words as well. In my night class we do enough grammar and noodling that, believe it or not, I think it actually speeds up the learning process. You recognize patterns and put 1 and 1 together more quickly. A little bit can go a long way.
Ken,
I completely agree with what you have said here and elsewhere both about grammar and the top-down approach. Much of the grammar can be taught implicitly; still more can be referenced briefly. For example, I consider learning phrases like 好不好, and then being told that this is an example of a pattern that can be used on the end of many sentences and modified, for example, to say 是不是 or 能不能, to be an case of learning grammar. I also think the way ChinesePod has presented this construction is ideal: the reference to the pattern brief; the repetition of the pattern spread over a number of lessons and consequently taught indirectly. Works for me anyway
That said, there are always going to be bits of grammar which need explicit explanation and in some sense need to be shown. From learning german I remember the difference finally grasping a key piece of grammar made for me: subordinate clauses. I had reached a point where although I was living in Berlin, and my vocabulary had improved, whole areas of speech (using words I understood) confused me because I could not relate the parts of sentences together correctly. Almost overnight this one piece of grammar opened up whole areas of the language, yet without explicitly teaching myself it I doubt I would have just picked it up: the grammatical notions were a missing part of the context for understanding.
For me, I do not like to dwell on grammar; but I do like to know what is going on. For example, sometimes 来 is followed by 了, sometimes not. If I am just exposed to both, I do not know what to think about 了 - it takes only a sentence or so to indicate that 了in 我来了indicates that the ‘coming’ has been completed (arrived in English) and that without the 了this is not necessarily the case. It takes only another sentence or so to give an example with another verb, presented as ‘you could also say… blah blah 了’ - and then move on with the rest of the lesson. Over a number of lessons, the idea is taught; without any need to talk about English perfect tenses, aspects of verbs etc…
Again, I strongly believe in the top-down approach; but I also do look forward to being taught those pieces of grammar that will move me up a level.
Best,
Carl
Sorry Ken, cognitive grammar is a term that’s been used since the 1980s at least, so I’m afraid you’re going to have to come up with some term that’s even trendier than that for your patent
In fact, I noticed it being used in this interesting article http://www.iias.nl/iiasn/18/regions/e1.html about the use of le, which shows that one has got even the academics in knots trying to pin it down and describe the way that particle is used. (I think they’re saying that grammar can’t tell you everything that le communicates, it depends so much on the participants’ interpretations within context and their prior understandings.) We don’t have to go to that extreme, we just have to use it in a few ways that help us communicate now, and be open to more ways in the future. Here, we do actually learn the context first, which is ideal. Then an explanation on our level (OK, call it grammar if you really must, I’ll block my ears) helps to confirm what insights we’ve picked up, and opens the door to learning even more variations.
Back to the point… This article is but one example that was written several years ago and uses the term cognitive grammar, with a different meaning. It’s taken, Ken, and they didn’t know about chinesepod back then. So we’ll need a new term. How about podative grammar?
PODATASTIC - I vote for a “podative” curriculum based on Kaenism with Jen-e style and a J.Pres-done base, tailored to fit the unique and wonderful style of each Cpodent.
This podative curriculum also has various affiliated courses in Haruku and Stevism. Occassionally Kaenism is offered with a double-major program which incorporates pop-a-ric studies in colour theory, and Clarc-writing. The full-degree program requires careful review of blog-ments, Wiki and LC particle mechanics. Each thesis defense utilizes current multimedia technology VPOT to demonstrate competency and the ability to apply learnings in a real-world environment.
le.
Lantian,
You said:
I’m not quite sure what you mean by that… Do you mean grammar-wise? Function-wise? It seems like a question with a huge scope.
Anyway, I agree that the top-down approach (learning by inference) is good, but studying explicit grammar rules can help a lot as well. Ultimately, a mix of the two will probably be most helpful, but the exact optimum proportions of the mix will differ from individual to individual.
NewGrounds.com? are you guys going to continue to use flash? *sigh* oh well.
What was once the power of flash is being far overshadowed by tech such as Ajax, ruby on rails and to a degree pyton.. User persistent data in flash is a nightmare. Although it is good for one hit wonder applications (where persistent data isn’t needed) but that isn’t the case with learning applications they need to be able to learn with you and remember what you have done so that they can provide analysis weakness’ in the users understanding and adjust themselves to address it. Flash apps just aren’t that adaptive.
While ChinesePod is on the cutting edge as far as ideas for language learning go the technical implementation is somewhat archaic. I would like to see a far better use of metadata to link podcasts together. Creating idea streams ie “food” a stream statring with the newibe lessons that deal with topics about food leading onto advanced lessons. Then providing streams that go off from food “dinning out” “cooking” and “ingediants”.
I have a fair few ideas in this vain mostly about UI design (my major)
Hi John from Sinosplice!
I guess it is a big all-encompassing type of question. How about this, do you think you did anything different in terms of studying/learning when you were at the intermediate level versus when you first started out? Specifically, after learning the first 500 or so words/phrases, did anything change for learning the next 501-1000?
For example, it seems like I have in some ways run out of ‘new grammar’ to learn, besides the really detailed/linguistic stuff you probably love, do I just need to focus on using it, writing more, getting more corrections/feedback from people? Are there specific writing exercises that you used? Did you write lists? Did you write stories? Did you diagram out sentences? Underline words, mimic other writings, self-correct? Did posting your Chinese blogs come at this stage or only when you were at a more advanced level? Same types of questions for talking.
I find it quite satisfying that I now recognize about 500 or so words with ease, it does feel like I’m actually ‘reading’ them. But will this also occur for the next 501-1000? Things seem to have slowed down for me so I’m getting paranoid that my acquisition has slowed. Am I just lazier than when I first started? Has my ‘internal mind’ changed? Have my expectations shifted? I seem these days to have trouble answering these questions to myself.
http://www.chinesepod.com/blog...../#comments
Did you go thru an ‘intermediate plateau’ as Phil Warwick and Ken describe it. Was there a period where in Phil’s words you had to ‘forceably’ push yourself to the next level? If so, what did you do to ‘push’ yourself up?
Charles, just remember that people will not pay for anything they can’t run on their old computer, slow/expensive net connection, or with whatever operating system they’re using. Telling them to upgrade is not effective: they would have done so already if it were an option, and the suggestion may offend.
Places like this need to decide where they want to aim their product at, somewhere between the extremes. Places of IT learning aim at the future so that students’ skills will last longer, which makes it frustrating I know.
The people here are pretty net savvy, but like you they are limited by the existing resources of their market. After taking care of language learning part itself, the presentation method comes down to a business or social equity decision rather than a purely technical one.
I leave the tech decisions squarely with the Hank. I’m quite confidenT he knows what he is doing. Let’s see if he will enter the discussion - HANK!!!
Charles,
We are very much tech agnostic here at ChinesePod and use whatever is most appropriate for what we are trying to do. For the website, personally, I have a preference for ROR with heavy AJAX, but we are somewhat limited by the very low awareness of ROR amongst the Chinese developer community and so are currently using PHP with some limited AJAX functionality (currently only on the subscribe page to check for the previous registration of an email address, but we will also be using it in other places to eliminate page refreshes where we can) and Flash for the more interactive exercises and games. For the mobile flashcards we currently only have a XHTML version, but will also develop a Flash Lite version to enhance usability. Again, just using the best tools for the job.
Just a preview, but we are in the midst of creating a number of tools to help navigate through the ever-growing archive. Over the next couple weeks (hopefully!), users will be able to construct their own course using tags, tools, ratings, etc to find the most appropriate lesson pods for them. Progress and scores will also be tracked. Hopefully this will be add some ‘continuity’ to the learning process.
As always we appreciate the feedback,
ChinesePod Tech Team
I am a bit spoilt when it comes to software design as in my current position at IBM I mostly roam the worlds of proof of concept. While I’m bored and playing around in my favourite websites I tend to start thinking about what I could do (if I had any time that is) to improve various things. ChinesePod is defiantly my current pet projet which I have no control over. The combination of ROR and AJAX would be a match made in heaven for ChinesePod as it is exactly the sort of thing that web 2.0 (stupid name for it but whatever) should be. I think the biggest challenge in ChinesePod is taking something that occurs in a chronological order and representing in a more dynamic fashion. Avoiding falling into set patterns I think is something ChinesePod is achieving very well but it also needs a way to reinvent its self on a user by user basis.
My reasons against flash for dynamic content still stand it just can’t adapt you always seem to be re inventing the wheel every time you want to change anything.
I shall be interested to see what is coming but no matter what it is i’m sure i’ll still find something to write diatribes about
Oh and I will apologize for the harshness with which my last comment sounded. I just see what ChinesePod could be but isn’t YET.
Feel free to contact me if anything i say takes your fancy… or made no sense.
Welcome, John. I’m delighted to see we get two for the price of one–Sinosplice (or at least the mind behind it) and Chinesepod. I want to thank you for your essays on the steps in your learning as well as the pronunciation article. That pronunciation article was the thing that got me over the hump. Before I tried to apply your tips, I might have said the right word, but Chinese people couldn’t understand me (except my teacher). Afterwards, I began to *hear* and started making much faster progress.
If there is anyone out there who doesn’t know about Sinosplice, I suggest you check it out.
But John, 5.7 years? Are you sure it’s not 5.732 years?
Thanks again,
Lantian–Do you know the Churchill quote that, I believe, ends with “and that, Madame, is something up with which I will not put?”
(If Churchill didn’t say this, or if I garbled it beyond recognition, please let me know.)
Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.
Hi Sinoslice John,
Over at your site you nicely describe ’stages’ in learning Chinese, you end the intermediate description with “To make it to the next stage, a lot of hard work and self-criticism is necessary, as long as prolonged, intense exposure to Chinese. Everyday exposure is not enough.”
http://www.sinosplice.com/lang.....g-chinese/
Along with my earlier questions about the ‘intermediate plateau’, could you expand on what you meant by everyday exposure is not enough and ‘intense exposure’, what does intense mean in this context?
Thanks!
Lantian,
OK, I will focus on your questions in an upcoming entry. Thanks for the feedback/questions.
Sandra,
Wow, it is really great to hear something like that! I write that stuff and put it up, but sometimes I forget that people are still reading it and finding it helpful. Those are exactly the results I hope for.
As for 5.7… Heh, I get quite a few comments about that. The number is generated by a PHP script, and rounded off to one decimal place. So it could tell you exactly when I’ve been in China for 5.732 years, but I figure that’s a little too much info.
The only comparable experience I have is learning Spanish when I was in high school. We studied basic grammar - how sentences are put together so that the meaning is as precisely conveyed as possible - as well as vocab lists, from the very beginning. That worked well for me because it gave me a logical framework for creating new sentences with some kind of confidence. I got better grades in Spanish than did my native-speaker classmates. But I really loved it.
Since I wish to learn Chinese for business purposes, I am looking for rules for saying things correctly, so that I won’t appear unprofessional. So I do expect to look for the grammatical rules to hang my hat on (or should I say, on which to hang my hat :-))?
Mary
JOHN does the hamster wheel - I just had to share for those who have not been to John’s site lately, it just makes me so proud to see a fellow American trying to bash a little girl in a plastic bubble.
http://www.sinosplice.com/life.....r#more-917